RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
jamodu
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RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

Post by jamodu »

In a bid to 'more inclusive' the Royal Air Force has banned female personnel from wearing skirts.

If they want to be so inclusive, why don't they encourage male personnel to wear such skirts instead?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/2969855/r ... inclusive/
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Re: RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

Post by moonshadow »

Well... what can I say, women think it's so cool to be a man.... until you're told you can't wear a skirt at work.

No sympathy from me... welcome to a man's world baby.... or should I say "buddy"? :roll:

I actually sort of support this. At least there no double standard.

The R.A.F. will back down though if it's infuriated that many women. Everyone knows you NEVER piss off women! :roll:
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Re: RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

Post by Disaffected.citizen »

jamodu wrote:If they want to be so inclusive, why don't they encourage male personnel to wear such skirts instead?
Although I can completely understand your question here, it's about "uniform". I cannot envisage too many men in the RAF openly taking to wearing the skirted uniform, even if it were an option.

In any event, since it is one of the armed forces, they wouldn't need to openly encourage men to wear a skirt to encourage equality; they could just issue an order!
moonshadow wrote:I actually sort of support this. At least there no double standard.

The R.A.F. will back down though if it's infuriated that many women. Everyone knows you NEVER piss off women! :roll:
I agree that they're treating everybody the same with this change, despite the cries of "political correctness" going mad. This is one area where I think that "women's equality" is "not quite there"; so this is a progressive step.


p.s. Should this thread be in the "In the news" section?
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Re: RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

Post by moonshadow »

Disaffected.citizen wrote:I agree that they're treating everybody the same with this change, despite the cries of "political correctness" going mad. This is one area where I think that "women's equality" is "not quite there"; so this is a progressive step.
And what's really wild is there are numerous stories of women raising hell because their work place requires them to wear skirts! I tell ya, there's just no pleasing some people! :P

I may have even mentioned on this site a few times that I'd be okay with employers who are afraid to let their male employees wear skirts on the job just make it a rule that everyone wears trousers, men and women. Fair is fair after all.

But I think it all boils down to women just don't like being told what to wear. How did we miss that boat? :?
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Re: RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

Post by moonshadow »

From the article wrote:Col Kemp, said: “There are obviously too many people in the RAF with too little to do if they have time to agonise over whether or not women should wear skirts in ceremonial uniform.”
Let's hear whatcha have to say when a man shows up in one!

*GASP*! :shock:

And before anyone says... "but male soldiers NEVER wear skirts!!!"...

Oh puulleeeaassseee! :roll:

Image

God... western culture... I swear they did something to the drinking water decades ago. People are just so hard headed!
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Re: RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

Post by STEVIE »

Hi Guys,
Let's get things straight,
There is no inherent right for a male to wear a skirt at his place of work in the UK.
The broad test is what is "acceptable" and hugely open to interpretation.
As an Armed Service, the R.A.F. is even higher placed and able to dictate to it's personnel.
The uniform is not open to question, it simply is. There is no choice for the Airmen/women,.
The "Brass" decide, the rest comply.
I reckon this is the easier option than allowing the guys to choose to wear skirts.
Oh calamity, the alternative could end civilisation as we know it.
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Re: RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

Post by renesm1 »

STEVIE wrote:Hi Guys,
Let's get things straight,
There is no inherent right for a male to wear a skirt at his place of work in the UK.
The broad test is what is "acceptable" and hugely open to interpretation.
As an Armed Service, the R.A.F. is even higher placed and able to dictate to it's personnel.
The uniform is not open to question, it simply is. There is no choice for the Airmen/women,.
The "Brass" decide, the rest comply.
I reckon this is the easier option than allowing the guys to choose to wear skirts.
Oh calamity, the alternative could end civilisation as we know it.
Steve.
How would the UK 2010 Equalities Act be interpreted in this instance?
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Re: RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

Post by crfriend »

renesm1 wrote:How would the UK 2010 Equalities Act be interpreted in this instance?
I suspect armed services may be largely exempt from those sorts of Acts.

Too, the RAF in this case is completely levelling the playing field and making it entirely "masculine" (whatever that may mean) instead of "up to each sex" to decide which dress uniform to wear. Everybody gets pants now. Done. (Just like it's done in the field; skirts likely are frowned upon when in action.)
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Re: RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

Post by Disaffected.citizen »

crfriend wrote:
renesm1 wrote:How would the UK 2010 Equalities Act be interpreted in this instance?
I suspect armed services may be largely exempt from those sorts of Acts.
I don't believe they are, other than (perhaps understandably) on grounds of disability. There are instances where exemptions apply to various laws, but not in this case unless I've misread, misunderstood or misinterpreted something.

The most obvious exemption to the Equalities legislation, of which I can think, is membership of the "Guiding" (i.e. Girl Guides, Brownies and Rainbows) movement, which specifically excludes boys; whereas, the Scouting movement took the decision ahead of enactment to allow the enrollment of girls.
Too, the RAF in this case is completely levelling the playing field and making it entirely "masculine" (whatever that may mean) instead of "up to each sex" to decide which dress uniform to wear. Everybody gets pants now. Done. (Just like it's done in the field; skirts likely are frowned upon when in action.)
Exactly! In any event, the RAF uniform (and likely its counterparts in the army and navy) is one of the few cases where I think the trousers (pants), leaving aside regiments where kilts are worn, actually look better than the unflattering skirts.
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Re: RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

Post by STEVIE »

Here's the quote from the 2010 Act:
Employers must avoid unlawful discrimination in any dress code policy.
Employers may have health and safety reasons for having certain standards.
Dress codes must apply to both men and women equally, although they may have different requirements.
Reasonable adjustments must be made for disabled people when dress codes are in place.
A dress code can often be used by employers to ensure workers are safe and dressed appropriately. It should, however, relate to the job and be reasonable in nature, for example workers may be required to tie their hair back or cover it for hygiene reasons if working in a kitchen.
Employers may have a policy that sets out a reasonable standard of dress and appearance for their organisation. Any dress code should be non-discriminatory and should apply to both men and women equally. Standards can be different, for example a policy may state "business dress" for women but may state for men "must wear a tie".
The key phrase is "different requirements"
The RAF as a military organisation is most certainly beyond the Act.
However, they are covered, NO ONE has a choice regardless of their beliefs, orientation or gender.
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Re: RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

Post by Disaffected.citizen »

STEVIE wrote:The RAF as a military organisation is most certainly beyond the Act.
As stated before (and unless I've misread something, in which case please direct me to the relevant reference) the RAF (and Royal Navy and Army) are bound by the Equalities Act; with the exception of the provisions for disabilities.
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Re: RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

Post by STEVIE »

Hi Disaffected,
I'm no legal expert, but this is my take:
The "act" allows for "different" requirements between male and female dress codes.
There is also protection for transgender employees.
The employer sets the requirement according to it's "needs".
In my case, my employer doesn't care because I don't present a problem.
My employment history was in retail. I could still be legitimately prevented from working in a skirt in a shop.
Legal, perhaps, fair, go figure.
The Armed Services are a whole separate minefield.
Still, it would be the uniform "clause". They can decide to add or remove elements as required or as is seen fit.
They just have to "apply" the requirements, end of. I can always be corrected.
The quote I used came direct from ACAS, if they get it wrong, I have no chance.

Steve.
Last edited by STEVIE on Sat Mar 04, 2017 8:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

Post by Sinned »

The 2010 Equalities Act certainly does apply to all the armed forces. I searched the government website and came across the following:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/equality-act-2010-guidance

Schedule 19 Consolidated List

"[Consolidated list – April 2011]
SCHEDULE 19 (EQUALITY ACT 2010)
PUBLIC AUTHORITIES
Part 1
PUBLIC AUTHORITIES: GENERAL
Ministers of the Crown and government departments

A Minister of the Crown.

A government department other than the Security Service, the Secret Intelligence Service or the Government Communications Headquarters.
Armed forces

Any of the armed forces other than any part of the armed forces which is, in accordance with a requirement of the Secretary of State, assisting the Government Communications Headquarters."

But, and here is the clincher, treatment by sex should be consistently applied to both so in banning skirts for both men and women they are fulfilling this. So I believe that skirts could be banned and still come within the 2010 Act. But then I am not an expert so I could still be wrong.
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Re: RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

Post by Disaffected.citizen »

OK gentlemen, I think I ought clarify a few matters....

The starting point, obviously, was the headline that the RAF are removing skirts from their uniform; that women will no longer be able wear skirts - by extension, if the uniform was, indeed, gender free then neither would men or transgender personnel.

Renems1 posed the question:
renesm1 wrote:How would the UK 2010 Equalities Act be interpreted in this instance?
so here we are talking about the application of the said Act to the RAF. Simply put, the removal of skirts levels (if it wasn't already level) the "playing field".

Crfriend then responded with:
crfriend wrote:I suspect armed services may be largely exempt from those sorts of Acts......
which is a fair enough gambit considering US laws differ from UK laws in these areas.

I clarified that:
Disaffected.citizen wrote:I don't believe they are, other than (perhaps understandably) on grounds of disability. There are instances where exemptions apply to various laws, but not in this case unless I've misread, misunderstood or misinterpreted something.
from my own research, it appears that the armed services are exempt from some of the disabilities provisions because they might cause operational difficulties, but the sex/gender provisions have no such impact and therefore apply in full.

Stevie then suggested:
STEVIE wrote:The RAF as a military organisation is most certainly beyond the Act.
In simple terms, this is incorrect; the RAF is not beyond the Act. Stevie then clarified that:
STEVIE wrote:However, they are covered, NO ONE has a choice regardless of their beliefs, orientation or gender.
Steve.
which is true, but it is also different from saying they are or are not bound by the Act.

Please note that at no point did I enter into discussion about how the RAF (or any other employer) interpret or implement the provisions of the Act. It is up to the employer, with due regard to their business and all of its requirements, to draft their dress code but it must not be discriminatory on the grounds of race, religion, age, sex, gender or disability in accordance with the Act.

As Stevie correctly notes, the RAF has a uniform; this has now been amended to remove skirts.

You will note that Sinned has also undertaken some research which concurs with my original assertion that the Equalities Act applies to the armed forces.

I am not going to embroil myself in the debate about what differing industries do with their dress codes, other than to say that the provisions of the Act make it unlawful for an employer to discriminate on the basis of race, religion, age, sex, gender or disability. The Act was drafted to update and consolidate previous anti-discrimination legislation and to encompass the various EU laws and directives on human rights aimed at eliminating discrimination. If my memory serves me correctly, at present, the Act does not apply in Northern Ireland - they may or may not have other provisions in place.
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Re: RAF Bans Women wearing Skirts

Post by Big and Bashful »

Without looking back over the whole thread, to me the RAF are not contravening the equal opps act or any other, both sexes are being treated exactly the same and will have to wear trousers.
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