Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
photoguy207
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Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

Post by photoguy207 »

We need a guy on TV to do the opposite!

Start wearing skirts on TV like Mary Tyler Moore did for women and pants!!!

https://www.facebook.com/refinery29/vid ... 888942922/
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crfriend
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Re: Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

Post by crfriend »

Indeed, the notion of trousers for women was brought up in the mass-media here in the US for the announcement of her passing. Interestingly, they decided to use the "capri pant" as the focus and showed some period footage -- and darned if the clam-diggers didn't look just as naff on her as they look today.

But, yes, we need a male counterpart today for skirts. I am not holding out much hope, however.
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oldsalt1
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Re: Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

Post by oldsalt1 »

I haven't watched the cable show "OUTSIDERS" I have seen a couple of promo's and a character Hasil is wearing a skirt. he aint exactly MTM but its the first time I have seen a repetitive male main character in any show wearing a skirt. But I really don't think the outfit would go to far on the cafe
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Jim
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Re: Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

Post by Jim »

photoguy207 wrote:We need a guy on TV to do the opposite!

Start wearing skirts on TV like Mary Tyler Moore did for women and pants!!!
Well, there was Klinger in MASH, but he was trying to act crazy, so it didn't help us much, I guess.
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crfriend
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Re: Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

Post by crfriend »

Jim wrote:Well, there was Klinger in MASH, but he was trying to act crazy, so it didn't help us much, I guess.
That was a long time ago to today's mindset, and the whole point there is that the character was playing it for "crazy" but everybody else realised that, appreciated him for his talents, and got on with business like it wasn't an issue.
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r.m.anderson
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Re: Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

Post by r.m.anderson »

If ONLY could EVEN get someone on ether side of the Pond to wear short mini kilts on a sitcom show.

The late Benny Hill certainly could WOW them - but that too was a long long time ago in a distant galaxy !

Sure has been an awful lot of media visits to Minneapolis with MTM passing. And in the IDS glass court
downtown the hat toss and video clips of MTM walking around the city lakes and the light left on in her
room of the (TV) house she lived in on Kenwood Parkway.
Lots of flowers left at the bronze statue of MTM and the hat toss.

File picture - due to Nicollet Mall construction statue is inside IDS court
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
"YES SKIRTING MATTERS"!
"Kilt-On" -or- as the case may be "Skirt-On" !
WHY ?
Isn't wearing a kilt enough?
Well a skirt will do in a pinch!
Make mine short and don't you dare think of pinching there !
photoguy207
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Re: Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

Post by photoguy207 »

Well, there was Klinger in MASH, but he was trying to act crazy, so it didn't help us much, I guess.
I never gave him a thought!

There are some great interviews of Jamie Farr on youtube where he talks about his MASH experience. Great actor!!
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Re: Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

Post by moonshadow »

I think what's at issue here is in the older days when women donned a pair of trousers in pop culture it was celebrated as an advancement for women in general where as when men don a skirt in pop culture it's considered a joke, degrading, crazy, a gag, etc.

Case in point, Klinger.

Kilts are not exempt either. Mom was watching one of her chick flick TV series back last year (the name eludes me tonight), but in one particular episode a man was expected to wear a kilt at a wedding and you would have think they were asking a kidney of him! He made a big fuss about it, he finally did wear the kilt, but the punch line of that part of the episode was that it wasn't to be taken seriously by the audience.

Women wearing trousers in 50's pop culture = liberating
Men wearing skirts (even kilts) in 2010's pop culture = comedy/joke/etc

As I've said in other threads, I believe on a somewhat subconscious level society still views anything to do with femininity as degrading. Even hard nosed feminist tend to not champion true "feminine" characteristics, rather they endevour to become more masculine! To me, the hallmark of feminism should be the rise of feminine equal to that of masculine, not simply an erosion of feminine. Both traits have their positive characteristics, and both sexes would do well to have a good balance of both.

As for me, I enjoy wearing my feminine outfits while still presenting as a man, despite the giggles and snickers I get. We must ask ourselves, why are they laughing? They are not laughing at me (who I am sans clothes), they are laughing at what I'm wearing... feminine clothing. What's really vexing is the majority of hecklers are women! They are laughing at the very thing that makes them beautiful and special! They are so proud of themselves that they have graduated into the world of masculine, and they laugh at anyone, man or woman who dares to be "pretty".

It's a very sad time for the female gender. It's like women, rather than fight for true liberation, adopted a "if you can't beat 'em, join 'em" mentality. Sad... very sad...

Goddess bless the crossdressers! I fear in 50 years time they will be the only true "feminine" people left in the world, at least in the west anyway! :(
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
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Re: Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

Post by amtriod »

Dear Moonshadow,
Your take, "I believe on a somewhat subconscious level society still views anything to do with femininity as degrading",
is possible.
But I suspect not.
I suspect that almost everyone regards male skirt wearing as simply different but fine.
I've not noticed giggles for skirt wearing though I have noticed fear of them.
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Re: Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

Post by Caultron »

amtriod wrote:Dear Moonshadow,
Your take, "I believe on a somewhat subconscious level society still views anything to do with femininity as degrading",
is possible.
But I suspect not.
I suspect that almost everyone regards male skirt wearing as simply different but fine.
I've not noticed giggles for skirt wearing though I have noticed fear of them.
I agree on all point except, "I have noticed fear of them."

I can't imagine anyone being afraid of a skirt. I mean, it's just a piece of cloth and some sewing. What's it going to do to anyone?

Or is that not the meaning you intended?
Courage, conviction, nerve, verve, dash, panache, guts, nuts, balls, gall, élan, stones, whatever. Get some and get skirted.

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moonshadow
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Re: Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

Post by moonshadow »

amtriod wrote:Your take, "I believe on a somewhat subconscious level society still views anything to do with femininity as degrading",
is possible.
But I suspect not.
I'll concede that I may be mistaken, however I do firmly believe that at least in the culture I'm adapted to, it's not just possible, but probable.
amtriod wrote:I suspect that almost everyone regards male skirt wearing as simply different but fine.
My mileage has differed greatly. Many people in my world are greatly put off by my choice in clothing. To those in my world, it is certainly not "fine".

You should know that I'm not one to stay in the realms of "masculine skirts". Some of the stuff I wear is out there, it's too much for many on this site even, but then again, that could be a source of my social sampling. I'm not trying to play the worlds smallest violin, but I'm just saying that when it comes to skirts, society does have it's limits as to what it deems as acceptable.

Basically, the practice almost cost my my very livelihood, and truthfully, it may very well yet, the jury is still out.

There are some who say "why not tone it down a little?"

I say "why should I?"

And so I fight on....
-Andrea
The old hillbilly from the coal fields of the Appalachian mountains currently living like there's no tomorrow on the west coast.
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Re: Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

Post by Grok »

moonshadow wrote:I think what's at issue here is in the older days when women donned a pair of trousers in pop culture it was celebrated as an advancement for women in general where as when men don a skirt in pop culture it's considered a joke, degrading, crazy, a gag, etc.

Case in point, Klinger.

Kilts are not exempt either. Mom was watching one of her chick flick TV series back last year (the name eludes me tonight), but in one particular episode a man was expected to wear a kilt at a wedding and you would have think they were asking a kidney of him! He made a big fuss about it, he finally did wear the kilt, but the punch line of that part of the episode was that it wasn't to be taken seriously by the audience.
:(
Which it makes it very difficult to survive if you try to market a skirt to men. These small businesses seem to make a brief appearance, and then disappear.

Kilting survives as a niche thing.
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Pdxfashionpioneer
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Re: Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

Post by Pdxfashionpioneer »

It's a very interesting conversation where one finds himself agreeing with nearly everything's that's said.

I agree with nearly everything that Moonshadow said, except that I don't think that in however many years the only truly feminine presentation will be by crossdressers. There are plenty of very feminine, downright girly, styles available on the mass market, why? Because plenty enough women are buying them.

As I've said many times, I have encountered no audible flashback and what few negative reactions I've encountered were at least equivocal. And this has been the experience of most of us.

However, that said, the reason so many of us, myself included, hesitate to wear our skirts in certain situations is exactly the power dynamic that Moonshadow cites and that leads to the form of feminism that Moon described. That variant is as old as feminism. When Female Liberation broke out in the late 60's/early 70's it had two threads, that femininity was as equally valid and powerful as masculinity and that women should demonstrate their equality by dropping all forms of girliness and acting and presenting in a more masculine manner. Over a half-century later the battle continues.

That's too bad, because I feel as Moon does, that the former is more accurate and more liberating for everyone, which is one of the messages that is still out there and I would say is the basis for the acceptance that we almost universally see.

And frankly Moonshadow, you generally report on.

You said you're determined to "fight on!" if anyone were fighting you, I would say, "Right on!" But I don't think most people in your neck of the woods are, so relax!

On the other hand, the battle for equality is still underway. Every time we walk out our front doors exercising our fashion freedom we are striking a blow for gender equality and we should take pride in that.
David, the PDX Fashion Pioneer

Social norms aren't changed by Congress or Parliament; they're changed by a sufficient number of people ignoring the existing ones and publicly practicing new ones.
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Re: Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

Post by Grok »

I have wondered if change will come from a younger generation. Imagine boys being inspired by older mavericks, who's example defies "trousers tyranny".
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oldsalt1
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Re: Mary Tyler Moore and her pants.

Post by oldsalt1 »

Significant changes has to come from the younger generations. I don't know how you would define younger to somebody my age The X generation is a younger generation some will say it starts with milliniums . My generation is too set in its ways to accept major changes.

Even though there has been some acceptance. I'll cite an example ear rings. not to long ago a man wearing just one earring was a total pox in modern society only women wore ear rings Today the only reason we may look is to see how big the stone is. it is just as acceptable for a man to wear them as a women.

While I dislike the extremes of political correctness. on the good side it has brought about an acceptance of things that are other than normal. And the realization that just because some one is a little different you don't have the right to pick on them.

While in general some may dislike the GBLT movement we have to admit that some of the battles that they are fighting can only further our cause.

I agree with Dave and Moonshadow that there are times we have to just back off and conform to the norm. If you have to wear pants so what. You are not letting our cause down. What you may gain from wearing a skirt has to be weighed against what can be lost. I have had a tremendous couple of weeks. made advances with "CERTAIN" clients that I never would have thought possible. But there are limits.

I honestly believe that there is going to be a major break thru in the next 5 to 10 years. Maybe the members of the cafe and other similar groups are going to be the vanguard of the change.I just hope some of us older members are around to enjoy it.
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