Difficulties with partners

[Sinned]

misha, I feel for you. I'm in a slightly better position and am about to try a suggestion of Dave's. See the Symbols of Power thread. I have two weeks holiday coming up and hence have the opportunity and time to address this. It appears that your need to talk to YOH is much more urgent since at least I have managed to get out of MOH that when she sees me in a skirt she sees me as a woman.

[moonshadow]

Reading these stories again, I had somewhat of an ironic thought, a memory somewhat.

I can sort of understand what the wives go through. They feel somewhat embarrassed to be in our company when we wear our skirts and what not.

I got a taste of this last summer when a coworker I know wanted to borrow my services to help him move a mattress from Johnson City TN to where he currently lives in Virginia.

Well, you all know me, on my time I wear what I want, and this man who comes off as very "red neck" and somewhat obnoxious didn't take an issue with what I wear (otherwise he wouldn't have asked me to help him move) so I agreed, and yes I wore one of my skirting outfits.

This was the FIRST TIME I had EVER went out in a skirt with someone other than my wife or daughter, and let me just say... it was WEIRD.

We stopped at a gas station right on the TN/VA border. I found myself somewhat embarrassed and made it a point to walk about 15 feet away from him as I felt as though onlookers would think "I was his woman". *yuck!*

Nothing against him personally, but even if I were a woman.... NO... He is not attractive to me in any way shape or form....

I know I don't exactly represent the pinnacle of the alpha male when I wear my skirts and dresses out, and would imagine I'm not particularly sexually attractive to the opposite sex, including my wife when I do so. I can understand my wife's point of view, or any wife's point of view for that matter.

And that's why we had our little talk a little over a year ago when I calmly told her that this is the way I have to be now, I don't want to loose her, but would understand if this was the end. We talked it over and she decided to stay...

...and I'm glad she did.

Once you've taken a bite out of the forbidden fruit... there's no going back. Yes, freedom sometimes comes with a steep price. If you're not willing to pay it, then you may have to keep the skirts in the drawer. It really is just that simple.

Is it worth a marriage? No one here can answer that, that's a choice each of you must make on your own. If it's just a passing curiosity then you might just cave and wear what she wants you to wear, if it gets deep down into your heart and your desire to be free, then you may have no choice but to have "the talk".

[hairy]

Freedom to wear a skirt does not always have to come at a price, I'm probably one of the lucky ones on here. Both my wife and 23 year old daughter are more than happy to be seen out with me in a mini skirt, but I must say I have the better legs for one which is probably why they both wear jeans/trousers.
So men in skirts does not always come at the price of a marriage breakup. In the 30 plus years of marriage there have been far worse things happen in my marriage.

[BorderXing]

@Caultron that was excellent. I would just also suggest not "hiding" anything you are not embarrassed to own. I have an almost identical situation to yours. I hang my skirts in my 1/2 of the closet. If my wife doesn't want to see them she doesn't have to look over there. I also keep leggings in my underwear drawer. The ones that can't go into the dryer I hang on the same drying rack that she uses. I keep nail colors in a drawer of the bathroom with my other stuff. She has known about this part of my personality for over 30 years. She is mostly afraid of what "other people" will think of her for accepting this part of me and so she protests. I am always amazed at how a simple piece of clothing or a bit of nail color can make otherwise progressive people behave so badly. I can't explain it but have felt it many, many times. You are fine, you don't do anything wrong. We have to find out how to be happy in the world we have. It is not easy brother, don't give in.

BorderXing

[denimini]

This was the FIRST TIME I had EVER went out in a skirt with someone other than my wife or daughter, and let me just say... it was WEIRD.

We stopped at a gas station right on the TN/VA border. I found myself somewhat embarrassed and made it a point to walk about 15 feet away from him as I felt as though onlookers would think "I was his woman".

This made me smile as I have been there, It is a bit off topic so I will start another thread. "Accompanied in Public"

[Caultron]

@Caultron that was excellent....

Thanks!

...She is mostly afraid of what "other people" will think of her for accepting this part of me and so she protests....

That bit, "I don't care, but I think other people I care about might," can be a tough one. It's just so nebulous and hypothetical that it's hard to disprove. It gets even tougher when someone says, "I know so-and-so doesn't seem to care, but I know that deep down inside they do."

In many cases, these imagined feelings of others are imprints of the speaker's own feelings that they might not want to admit.

How much freedom do you have given does the current arrangement with your wife? Like, does it confine you to your house, or can you go out as long as she's not along, or does it have to be far away, or does she prefer that you sneak even though she knows about it, or what?

[renesm1]

In many cases, these imagined feelings of others are imprints of the speaker's own feelings that they might not want to admit.

I agree, this "projection" is more common than you realise. Sometimes I think that my own thoughts about what people might think may well be mine. Then again, is that just self-brainwashing???

[Caultron]

In many cases, these imagined feelings of others are imprints of the speaker's own feelings that they might not want to admit.

I agree, this "projection" is more common than you realise. Sometimes I think that my own thoughts about what people might think may well be mine. Then again, is that just self-brainwashing???

I'm sure it can be.

It's also going on when we project our own fear or rejection onto others who may not reject us at all. The insecurity of one's first time out is a prime example.

Sometimes, it's just easier to expect the worst.

[BorderXing]

...

How much freedom do you have given does the current arrangement with your wife? Like, does it confine you to your house, or can you go out as long as she's not along, or does it have to be far away, or does she prefer that you sneak even though she knows about it, or what?

Ummmm, it's complicated, but I can do anything I want at some price. The overarching themes have been "keep it out of my face" and "don't embarrass me". I work at home and she works out so I have the house to myself most days. It is easy enough to change relatively quickly if she comes home unexpectedly. She would get hostile if I didn't change quickly. I have self constrained myself to mostly hiking in skirts and kilts because I really enjoy the solitude of being myself in nature. I go to stores and run errands in the same clothes I hike in when I feel like it but frankly the novelty has worn off and I don't really think I'm changing the world by letting people have exposure to something new and different. I would say that in general it makes most other people really uncomfortable to see a man mixing male and female culture in their clothing. Oh and toe nail color is easy in the winter, finger nail color is really hard for my family anytime.

[mishawakaskirt]

@Caultron that was excellent. I would just also suggest not "hiding" anything you are not embarrassed to own. I have an almost identical situation to yours. I hang my skirts in my 1/2 of the closet. If my wife doesn't want to see them she doesn't have to look over there. I also keep leggings in my underwear drawer. The ones that can't go into the dryer I hang on the same drying rack that she uses. I keep nail colors in a drawer of the bathroom with my other stuff. She has known about this part of my personality for over 30 years. She is mostly afraid of what "other people" will think of her for accepting this part of me and so she protests. I am always amazed at how a simple piece of clothing or a bit of nail color can make otherwise progressive people behave so badly. I can't explain it but have felt it many, many times. You are fine, you don't do anything wrong. We have to find out how to be happy in the world we have. It is not easy brother, don't give in.

BorderXing

I don't think I have anything that I am embarrassed about owning. Well maby one outfit.
I have always hidden my stuff, first from my parents, now from my wife. I don't want to come home one day from work and find all my skirts, have been destroyed or taken to a thrift shop donation box. Several years ago she got miffed about something and cut up a pair of "nice" underware. So that only reinforced my belief in keeping things stowed away.
Occasionaly I get sloppy and she finds something. She leaves it alone but makes sure to mention it . Later I make sure it gets back to a more secure location. I still have the first skirt I ever bought .
The unknown female mind and PMS, I figure its better to be safe than sorry.
I don't want to lose my favorites.
Back in July I put an expendable denim skirt in with my outer shorts shelf,
she found in within 2 weeks of me putting it there. Spawned a minor
arguement. However its still there.
If we have an arrangement it is unofficial. At best its " I don't want to know or to see IT" Ostrich in the sand mentality.
I figure I wear skirts way way more often than she thinks I do. She don't know I put one as often as I can. Solo road trips,
when she is out doing things.

Trying a more accepted garment
I have pushed the envelope with a kilt five times for anywhere from an hour to about 4 or 5 hours. Every time being fairly tense, and with her repeatly
calling it a skirt."do you like your skirt?
"Nice skirt" " pretty skirt" you get the idea.

I am going to try to press the kilt once every week or two unless I sence too much pressure build up. I hang my kilts with my clothes, so if Push too much they might perish.

[Caultron]

How long has this "ostrich" thing been going on?

[moonshadow]

I have pushed the envelope with a kilt five times for anywhere from an hour to about 4 or 5 hours. Every time being fairly tense, and with her repeatly
calling it a skirt."do you like your skirt?
"Nice skirt" " pretty skirt" you get the idea.

Did someone say pretty??

If you're gonna face the accusation... own it baby!


As Ian says... "have fun"!



Seriously... get your obnoxious on... it may help! And when they laugh, put a good song on and dance around the living room. Get a smile out of her!

[Pdxfashionpioneer]

Right now my biggest difficulty with partners is that I don't have one so take what I have to say as more theoretical than necessarily practical, but if it resonates, maybe you'll want to apply it.

I too have wondered at that weird phenomenon a number of us have reported on, a Significant Other who can accept and maybe even applaud, skirts on men; just not the one they're attached to, namely ourselves. Some of you have called it out as hypocritical and it's easy to see it that way.

I think that's not quite fair to our SO's because I recently felt the shoe on the other foot. One of my women friends got to be a friend about the time I started wearing dresses to church. We had met through our professional association. She had been a speaker and she was impressed with my questions and comments. At any rate, having just gotten to the point in my separation where I felt the need for female companionship, I took an other than professional interest in her ... and almost every other woman who would talk to me, including a beautiful, shapely lesbian who goes to my church. We're still good friends.

Anyway, Nancy (not her real name), my friend from my professional association insists she "flies solo," hence my nickname for her, "Amelia." Despite that, "Amelia" phones me nearly every night, says she misses me when one or the other of us is out of town, even though we only rarely actually get together. When we do, in some way or another her control freak tendencies get in the way of it being a fully enjoyable night out. That's the aspect of her personality that convinced me that it would never work out between us. (Sorry, there's only room in any given relationship for just one control freak and I got here first!)

Fast forward to now and we made plans to go to an aerials performance (think of a low budget Cirque du Soleil) put on by the studio where she has been studying that art/exercise form. While she's generally supportive of my wardrobe choices, she gets anxious about people she knows seeing us together when I'm in a dress. Our text messages got mixed up about what I should wear to this event, because she was asking what I wore to Mom's memorial service and I thought she was suggesting I wear one of my red dresses to this upcoming event.

Once we got that straightened out she said she planned to ask some of her consulting clients to join us and didn't want me to compromise her image by my wearing a dress. I said that was fine, but she needed to consider that her clients weren't put off by her tattoos and her half-shaven head so how much difference could my dress make? After a day's thought she saw my point and encouraged me to wear my red dress that most of the people there would be kind of artistic and therefore probably open-minded.

That got my vivid imagination into gear and I foresaw a situation where I was chatting up an available, artistic lady when she asked, "Well, what about Nancy?" To which my imaginary self replied, "What about her? We're not going together!"

I then realized that my imaginary self was almost put out that someone would think I would go with someone who looked like that! Tattoos and half-shaven head indeed! I'm proud to be her friend because she's very bright and dynamic, but be involved with someone who presents herself like that? Never! She doesn't fit my mental image of how my S.O. looks.

In a flash I realized there's the rub! Plenty of women are attracted to men who have the kind of self-assurance and independence to wear a skirt, but only as far as an evening's conversation at a bar or whatever. How many want a committed relationship with a guy who wears dresses? Wait, that's no one's image of a perfect guy!

So there's the barrier. How do we get over it? I remember that Karl, I think it was, said his wife got on board with his skirting because he had supported her in her unconventionality. In short, they reframed it as a matter of fairness. Have you, like Karl been as supportive of your lady as Karl has been of his wife? If so, remind her, not in a guilt-inducing manner, but as this is the nature of healthy relationships. If you haven't, why not? And what can you expect now?

Another dimension is that just as we try to protect our loved ones, so too do they. Our wives take over from our Moms in trying to talk us out of our more dangerous ideas of fun. I'm sure plenty of our spouses fear for our safety when we're in skirts. The Café can certainly help with that one.

Another fear is, embodied in the question, "What kind of man wears skirts?" I could never convince Susan when I was crossdressing that I wasn't doing it to attract men. The flip side of that question is, "What kind of woman hooks up with a guy who wears dresses?"

Both questions miss a point made in the Nat Geo show, "The Gender Revolution." At the beginning of the documentary they made the point that there are three dimensions to gender: Sex (What set of organs are you equipped with?), Sexual orientation (Who do you want to "mate" with?) and Gender Expression (Do you limit yourself to the way that one or the other of the sexes generally present themselves in your society or do you do something in-between?) As independent axes there isn't necessarily any correlation amongst them. But most people assume there is.

So no, our mates aren't hypocritical, they're normal, Western human beings. Being logical and consistent is reserved for Vulcans such as Spock.

[crfriend]

So no, our mates aren't hypocritical, they're normal, Western human beings. Being logical and consistent is reserved for Vulcans such as Spock.

Well, yes and no. Recall that our partners have a great advantage over outside observers -- they know us very, very well. They know that we can handle any situation that arises, or at least make the best of it. I suspect that there's a lot more selfishness involved than anyone wants to admit, and it's that that comes across as hypocritical and illogical. Certainly our partners won't admit to it, and we don't want to admit to it, either, because that would lessen our own view of them.

[Sinned]

Dave, I haven't managed to do the experiment yet because one or other of us has been ill with a flu-like virus. I had it, she had it and now I've had it again. I am just recovering from it now which for a fortnight's holiday is a hell of a way to spend it. There is tomorrow and Sunday and if we both feel better I'll make the attempt.

In terms of what you are saying you have a point to a degree but every situation doesn't fit. Carl makes the point about selfishness and in the past the point about control has been made. I think all have some input into this complex area but in what mix I don't know. MOH often accuses me of not being the man she married and I'm not - that person was 41 years ago and I have slept a time or two since then and undergone many experiences, some distressing. But then she isn't the person I married either for the same reasons. Perhaps I should tactfully remind her of that but tactfully and not in a full-blown argument.

You have to realise that MOH is perfect, she doesn't drink alcohol, has never smoked, is utterly faithful, is rather conservative in all her ways and in many ways has a heart of gold with others. Although I have supported her many times in the past it's difficult to think of anything that's as way out as my skirt wearing. She wars leggings ALL the time but they're not trousers, they were designed and made for women.