Are We Winning?

General discussion of skirt and kilt-based fashion for men, and stuff that goes with skirts and kilts.
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SkirtRevolution
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Are We Winning?

Post by SkirtRevolution »

As I read many article and reports on the internet about skirts for men, and 99% of them are positive about the idea and encouraging it, I notice that these have been written about 2007-2009 but not many recent ones for 2011(or am I wrong?). So I ask people on this forum to give their honest opinion about this, are we winning? Are we getting closer to seeing skirts for men in stores? are more designers getting behind the man skirt and showing them in their catwalk shows? are there more support groups/websites/forums appearing everyday. I quess I am hoping to hear a resounding yes. Here in Australia, you don't here much about the man skirt, and while most people don't say anything when I wear a skirt it isn't something that people usually see. For many of you, you have watched the development of the man skirt concept grow and become more accepted in fasion so I would love to hear from you about where we are today.
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Re: Are We Winning?

Post by Big and Bashful »

I don't see much change really, at least on here you regularly see an individual winning their own personal battle for skirtery. That's something at least.
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Re: Are We Winning?

Post by couyalair »

SkirtRevolution wrote: these {articles} have been written about 2007-2009 but not many recent ones for 2011(or am I wrong?).
I cannot answer since I don't keep a tally of articles of ay kind, but you could well be right since there is only a certain amount one can say about skirts, and nearly every article I have seen is just repeating whateve the others have said. After a while, more writing seems futile, so the source of articles dries up. A bit like this forum actually; once you've said "no-one cares a damn whether I'm skirted or not", why say it again?
So I ask, Are we getting closer to seeing skirts for men in stores?
Could be, but I've seen nothing in any shops in France or Spain.
are more designers getting behind the man skirt and showing them in their catwalk shows?
They all seem to do so -- for the sake of attention!

While there may be tiny groups in many countries, that are keen on skirts but may or may not wear them in public, it seems to me that certain parts of north America are the only places where skirts are worn, thanks to the wily advertizing by Utilikilts of Seattle. On the other hand vast swathes of USA are second only to Saudi Arabia in their reactionary conservatism, so there too, we are a long way from becoming mainstream.
And even Scotland, where men ought to be leading the world, is an ocean of trousers.

But don't let me discourage anyone from showing their knees. Doing it is the only way to get others to do it.

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Re: Are We Winning?

Post by couyalair »

And, alas, one of today's posts shows that some skirted men prefer to return to trouser wearing.
(Hi, Brett, that's not criticism -- I'm sure you have your reasons.)

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Re: Are We Winning?

Post by crfriend »

couyalair wrote:After a while, more writing seems futile, so the source of articles dries up. A bit like this forum actually; once you've said "no-one cares a damn whether I'm skirted or not", why say it again?
There has been some commentary here in the past that the articles on "I wore a skirt today and nothing happened." remain an inspiration to those who are contemplating the notion of heading out into the wider world with both legs down one pipe instead of two. This is important, because this is not something we will "win" in one big go, it's an aggregation of little victories -- sometimes intangible ones.
are more designers getting behind the man skirt and showing them in their catwalk shows?
They all seem to do so -- for the sake of attention!
Personally, I do not believe that this will be "won" from the catwalk; the reasons why we wear skirts, and why designers put them on display are very different. The designers are putting them out there to try and generate "shock and awe"; we wear them out and about because we like them, find them comfortable, and are willing to buck the trousers-only notion that pervades the common mind.
While there may be tiny groups in many countries, that are keen on skirts but may or may not wear them in public, it seems to me that certain parts of north America are the only places where skirts are worn, thanks to the wily advertizing by Utilikilts of Seattle.
This may be true to a point, but I believe you'll find that any sort of "organised movement" is a fiction. Guys wearing skirts in the Western World remain a rarity, and likely will for quite some time. I actually don't know if I'm particularly interested in seeing the notion gain wide adoption; I am very keen, however, in it getting wide acceptance.

As near as I can tell, skirts are accepted on guys where I live in the Northeast of the US. Once in a while I'll get a cross look, but those are easily ignored or, if one is in the mood, challenged. Last Friday on my way to Boston's waterfront, I got a very cross and disapproving look from one woman and that was easily turned to a smile by locking eyes with her, smiling, and saying, "Good morning". It's really amazing how easy that is -- and I was not in a good mood at all at the time (and it may have shown) because I was running very late.
On the other hand vast swathes of USA are second only to Saudi Arabia in their reactionary conservatism, so there too, we are a long way from becoming mainstream.
I prefer to think of those backwards parts as not being part of the USA. It'd be nice if we could either get them to secede or outright eject them from the union.
And even Scotland, where men ought to be leading the world, is an ocean of trousers.
Trousers have their place in the lexicon of clothing; so do skirts -- and they have those places for different reasons. I am not about to completely abrogate the right to wear trousers just because i want to occasionally wear a skirt; I want the ability to choose, and to have that option accepted -- and I believe that we are either already there, or vanishingly close. I cannot actually recall the last time I wore trousers, but I am not about to relinquish the option to don duo-tubes when the need arises.
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Re: Are We Winning?

Post by Stu »

Are we winning? No.

We have won one important battle, IMO, because men like me can go out wearing a plain denim skirt and there is little or no reaction. Same with a Utilikilt, or something similar. However, like every victory, the victors must capitalise on it otherwise it will fade and you are back to square one. That's what has happened here.

On another thread, I said we should focus on masculine styles - and keep them masculine in the sense of how the word "masculine" is understood in our culture. As always happens, others then start to disagree about what is and is not masculine, and claim that striving for a masculine appearance actually detracts from the freedom to wear what you like as women can. Those who take that view are failing to see the bigger picture - getting male skirts to be universally accepted is a mammoth task requiring a major change of the public mindset, and you can't achieve it in one go. In part, this is because males wearing skirts are associated with crossdressing. The change we must make has to be done piecemeal - a bit at a time. The first "bit" is to get some garment, something which could be considered vaguely masculine, to break the unbifurcated garment barrier once and for all, and get it made commonplace and unremarkable. Without breaking that barrier, all other efforts are in vain. Kilts tend to be expensive and also have association with a particular national dress, so are perhaps not the best starting place, so I suggested either the plain, straight denim skirt, or the sarong, as an alternative. Let's be clear - IF we ever get these accepted and commonplace, we will have made the breakthrough and anything is possible from there. If we don't make this breakthrough, then we might as well forget it and we will remain a fringe group which is perceived as odd.

So we can sit on our hands and grumble that we have made little progress, or we can take a strategic approach - an approach which won't suit everyone and which appears to fall well short of their ultimate ambitions - and then make the crucial breakthrough which will, eventually, see the changes we all desire.

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Re: Are We Winning?

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Stu wrote:Are we winning? No.
Thanks for the always-cogent commentary, Stu, but I would surmise that the answer is not quite so cut and dry, for the question can be asked in different ways. "Are we winning the grand strategic end-game?" is one question that could be asked, and the answer on that one is, mostly, "No." "Are we winning little tactical victories?" is another way of asking the same question, and the answer there is, "Absolutely, yes." Too, there's the vague definition of "we"; is this a "we" as in the sense of a coordinated international force, or is it "we" as in a collection of independent-minded individuals who dare to buck the current trend?

There is no grand international movement in this case simply because the vast mass of Western humanity just doesn't care; it has larger issues to worry about at the moment -- like the utter wholesale crash of Western economies -- than what some random individual is wearing. Any notion of a "movement" is a fiction; it doesn't exist. What does exist, however, is a number of individuals -- in all probability many orders of magnitude larger than this little on-line community -- who are willing to defy convention, and to do so publically and openly. Are these individuals rare? They're extremely rare, and in all probability the average person on the street may never even see one, or have it register if they do. But they do exist.
We have won one important battle, IMO, because men like me can go out wearing a plain denim skirt and there is little or no reaction. Same with a Utilikilt, or something similar. However, like every victory, the victors must capitalise on it otherwise it will fade and you are back to square one. That's what has happened here.
This depends on who one is dealing with. True, some guys experiment with skirt-wearing and then return to trousers -- but some stick with it. There is a lot involved in this, especially with the very nasty economic situation, as things like employment are quite dear at the moment, and it's not worth risking losing a job because you want both legs down one tube. That's just being practical, it's not "turning one's back on victory" or "failing to capitalise" on same.

Ultimately, it's about getting out and being seen in public; it's about convincing the viewer that what you're wearing is only one tiny component of your being; it's about being confident and, where required, charming and challenging; it's about making the look so natural that onlookers will just immediately accept it. It's not about being invisible, and it's about more than the skirt -- it's about the entire presentation. Ultimately, it's about who the individual is and how he wishes to project himself and how he wishes to be perceived by those around him -- and that perception will be held by onlookers whether one can engage them or not.
On another thread, I said we should focus on masculine styles - and keep them masculine in the sense of how the word "masculine" is understood in our culture.
Indeed, but the problem here is that everybody seems to have differing notion of what "masculine" is and what it should look like. One version states that "masculine" is embodied by that marketing icon the "Marlboro Man" (who's probably dead from cancer by now); another one was stated here as (to paraphrase) being ready and able to step up to a task and see it through to completion, be it fixing a car or changing a diaper, shooting the center out of a target or being a loving and caring father, going to war for one's country or showing compassion to those around him.

First and foremost, denim does not equal masculinity -- not even close; it equals unparalleled drabness and uniformity because it's what everybody else is wearing. We strive to be different from the masses, and what we wear is merely an expression of that. This is where my notion of "believeability" comes in; if a look is presented to an onlooker that looks cogently put together and pleasing to the eye -- and does not clash with either the wearer or those around him -- it will be accepted by the majority of people. They may not like it or want to emulate it, but that's fine; if they do, however, like it that is a clear and compelling victory. Ultimately, masculinity is shown by how one behaves and how one interacts with the world around him; it's his actions, not his words or his dress that make it or break it.
So we can sit on our hands and grumble that we have made little progress, or we can take a strategic approach - an approach which won't suit everyone and which appears to fall well short of their ultimate ambitions - and then make the crucial breakthrough which will, eventually, see the changes we all desire.
That's where "places" like this come into play. By advocating for the notion of skirted garments for guys, and by sharing our experiences, we can hopefully convince other men to give something other than trousers a go. I don't care whether it's a straight denim skirt or a tutu, it's the act of being different and the act of being courageous enough to be one's self rather than an imitation of what others think one should be.
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Re: Are We Winning?

Post by Stu »

cfriend

If we want to know whether we are winning or not, we must first determine and agree exactly what we are striving for. Here is what i want:

1. Clothes shops to offer various styles of skirts for men, and for that to be as normal as them selling pants to women.
2. To be able to walk around on a summer's day and to see that there are as many guys wearing skirts as women.
3. Any job which has a uniform or dress code which incorporates skirts for women, automatically does the same for men.

If we ever get to the stage at which we can say we have more or less achieved all three of these, then we really will have won. Right now, we are as far from achieving that as we have ever been. Skirts are perceived, and defined in dictionaries, as garments for females. If we are going to change that, we need a proper, organised movement with a coherent narrative and in which the members and supporters are united and clear as to their goals. We haven't even tried to achieve that. I can agree with much of what you say, and then we get to this point:
First and foremost, denim does not equal masculinity -- not even close; it equals unparalleled drabness and uniformity because it's what everybody else is wearing. We strive to be different from the masses
That's the problem with acceptance - we don't - we need to be the same as everyone else to begin with, except for one, small difference, namely that the denim garment below our waist is not jeans or shorts, it is a skirt. Males wearing skirts is a very strict taboo and we are going to get precisely nowhere until that taboo is completely shattered. Denim skirts can be a good starting point because denim is (a) perceived as relatively masculine, and (b) it is extremely commonplace. Sarongs also offer a similar opportunity because we can justifiably claim that they are already unisex - the problem with sarongs is that they are exclusively summer wear and that means that, for most people in the cooler climates, they are not an option except for a few months of the year. What other alternatives are there? There is no way that men are going to be persuaded to wear tailored skirts, lightweight cotton skirts, knitted skirts, tutus or pleated skirts in the foreseeable future because they are, quite simply, a step too far. Attempts by designers to entice men into these have all failed spectacularly since Gaultier tried it almost three decades ago.

Seeing men wearing skirts is, as you say, vanishingly rare. Being seen as an individual in terms of dress makes you just that - an aberration. There are never going to be enough of these aberrations to make the necessary sea-change, which is why we need a proper movement, and with a clear and realistic strategy. Without that, we will be having this self same conversation three decades from now. If we are still around by then.

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Re: Are We Winning?

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Stu wrote:If we want to know whether we are winning or not, we must first determine and agree exactly what we are striving for. Here is what i want:

1. Clothes shops to offer various styles of skirts for men, and for that to be as normal as them selling pants to women.
2. To be able to walk around on a summer's day and to see that there are as many guys wearing skirts as women.
3. Any job which has a uniform or dress code which incorporates skirts for women, automatically does the same for men.
This is, to me, the "grand strategic end-game" I referred to earlier, and I agree with your assertion that we are not even close as a culture, and, sadly, I don't see any of those realistically coming to pass during my lifetime. In the interim, however, I am not content to sit back and do nothing or, worse, to whinge about it and still do nothing. So I take action; I "walk the walk" and I do so with pride and dignity -- and I am accepted. I wear my skirts at work, I wear my skirts when I am "out and about" in public, I even wear my skirts sailing. I call that a victory; it may be a small one, but it remains one, and would hopefully be a model to challenge other guys to give it a go.

Items 1 and 2 in your list are inextricably intertwined because if skirts -- marketed specifically to men -- are not available (item 1) item 2 will never come to pass, and if item 2 never happens, neither will item 1. That's just market-forces at work. Hello egg, meet chicken.

As far as item 3 goes, I sense a general move away from dress codes (for better or worse, take your pick); however, it should always be incumbent upon folks to dress -- and behave -- properly when on the clock, and when it comes right down to it, while clothes may be important behaviour will trump appearance almost all the time. For very rigid workplaces, I agree that the option should be universal, but until we see item 2 above the notion will not likely even come up.
I[...] Right now, we are as far from achieving that as we have ever been. Skirts are perceived, and defined in dictionaries, as garments for females. If we are going to change that, we need a proper, organised movement with a coherent narrative and in which the members and supporters are united and clear as to their goals. We haven't even tried to achieve that.
I honestly don't know if there are enough individuals who dare defy convention to even make such a movement, and if there are, it may be a case of "trying to herd cats". It might not even be possible. However, I am not going to let that stop me.
First and foremost, denim does not equal masculinity -- not even close; it equals unparalleled drabness and uniformity because it's what everybody else is wearing. We strive to be different from the masses
That's the problem with acceptance - we don't - we need to be the same as everyone else to begin with, except for one, small difference, namely that the denim garment below our waist is not jeans or shorts, it is a skirt.
Criticism understood and accepted, but it's worth noting that even the "invisible denim" skirt is still a skirt, and I'd posit that the only reason that it seems invisible in the first place is visual fatigue on the part of the onlooker because denim is so overwhelmingly prevalent. From a very personal perspective, I refuse to wear denim because (1) I positive loathe the stuff and (2) the material doesn't last more than a season on me before coming apart or otherwise becoming non-serviceable. Mileage on this count will vary, and I'm not trying to force anything on anybody else. I also do not view denim as workplace-appropriate, at least at the professional level.
Males wearing skirts is a very strict taboo and we are going to get precisely nowhere until that taboo is completely shattered. Denim skirts can be a good starting point because denim is (a) perceived as relatively masculine, and (b) it is extremely commonplace.
Sadly, we're back at the chicken/egg juncture here, and we find ourselves stymied there. I agree that if a cogent and compelling argument can be made for men's skirts -- preferably a visual one -- there might be hope, but I do not believe it'll come from the runway, nor will it come from the entertainment industry. I believe that individuals will have to drive it, and that carries more than a small measure of risk as the "message" may get garbled. In short, I don't see any way out of this state of impasse.
Sarongs also offer a similar opportunity because we can justifiably claim that they are already unisex - the problem with sarongs is that they are exclusively summer wear and that means that, for most people in the cooler climates, they are not an option except for a few months of the year.
They also tend to be regarded as being very casual attire and, therefore, not particularly well suited for professional garb.
What other alternatives are there? There is no way that men are going to be persuaded to wear tailored skirts, lightweight cotton skirts, knitted skirts, tutus or pleated skirts in the foreseeable future because they are, quite simply, a step too far. Attempts by designers to entice men into these have all failed spectacularly since Gaultier tried it almost three decades ago.
I believe the answer here is, "It depends" -- and it depends on the individual man involved. We do not know why Gaultier put men in skirts down a runway 30 years ago, because there was clearly a high-speed excursion (the polite term for an end-of-runway crash) at the far end. I suspect it had to do more with "shock and awe" (Look at how cutting-edge I am!) rather than any attempt to actually popularise the look; most runway creations are so far "over the top" that no self-respecting bloke would be caught dead in them. If they put a bloke down the runway in a well-tailored skirt-suit it might garner some attention by showing one way forward, but the designers don't do that; this is why I do not believe that any motion will be inspired by the Fashion (capital "F" there) industry. As far as your list goes, I have several examples in my wardrobe if all of them save a tutu, and, not being a dancer (I have two left feet) I see no need for one as it's a specialised piece of performance attire not something that gets worn on the street.
Being seen as an individual in terms of dress makes you just that - an aberration.
Perhaps, but at least where I come from there is some cultural respect for the bold individual who has the guts to strike out on his own and make good. This is one point where the US may have a small advantage; take a look at the Utilikilt company who had the guts and gusto to make a go of it.
There are never going to be enough of these aberrations to make the necessary sea-change, which is why we need a proper movement, and with a clear and realistic strategy. Without that, we will be having this self same conversation three decades from now. If we are still around by then.
Well, then, it's time to start writing the manifesto!
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Re: Are We Winning?

Post by Grok »

The current economic situation has been compared to The Long Depression of the 19th century.
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Re: Are We Winning?

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On another forum it was proposed that there is a long cycle in political attitudes. That is, though the particular issues are different, similar attitudes may reappear. Today's attitudes have been compared to those of the Glorious Revolution. Note - a limited tolerance was extended to nonconforming Protestants.
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Re: Are We Winning?

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Fashion designers, I think, have acted as though they have been designing womens' clothing. That is, skirts for men as simply a matter of fashion. And then they run straight into the brick wall of Trousers Tyranny.
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Re: Are We Winning?

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Grok wrote:Fashion designers, I think, have acted as though they have been designing womens' clothing. That is, skirts for men as simply a matter of fashion.
There's also the notion that most men -- or at least men who care about how they look -- tend to focus on style rather than Fashion (there's that dreaded capital "F" again). Style is timeless and stands on its own; it does not require someone to push it; it does not require marketing; it does not need hype. It simply is -- and it can vary, sometimes dramatically, from person to person. If I am going to spend the time (and money, for they are the same thing after all) on something, I want to be able to wear it next year and five years from now and have it reflect who I am as a person; Fashion does not do that: style does.

A co-worker of mine turned me onto The Sartorialist a while ago and, while some of the looks portrayed thereon are positively hideous to my mind, there are a lot of very good ideas. The chap shoots a lot of Fashion shows, but also captures folks with their own sense of style on the street, and does so masterfully.
And then they run straight into the brick wall of Trousers Tyranny.
I think that's more of a case of not being able to "think outside the box" than anything else.
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Re: Are We Winning?

Post by couyalair »

Someone wrote :
"Even now it is kilt or denim, nothing else...
I can't see me ever wearing my latest skirt in public, a black and maroon floor length full circle chiffon ... There is no way I could pluck up the courage to wear that, comfy in the house though!"
(from another thread)
If a kilt/skirt-wearer feels like this (and I think most of us have a limit beyond which we cannot step), is it likely a trouser-wearer will be bolder?

No criticism implied here. I too have a mental blockage about wearing anything that is not wrap-around and kilt-like. I wear several styles of plain simple skirts at home, and sometimes cycle in plain short skirt, but, to go out anywhere, it has to be a wrap-around.
Quite ridiculous, since the public makes no distinction whatsoever : " a skirt is a skirt and is not worn by men." They don't think me any less strange in a Scottish kilt than in an A-line (ladies') skirt. But my brain prefers to think otherwise, and lets me be seen by anyone and everyone in a kilt or wrap skirt, but not in any other. Total self-delusion.
I've been wearing kilts for special occasions all my adult life and other skirts for 10 years, but still have this mental block. Are trouser-wearers that have never stepped out of the box more open-minded than I am?

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Re: Are We Winning?

Post by Big and Bashful »

I guess there's nowt so queer as folk!

(In case of linguistic differences; queer = odd = peculiar, NOT the other meaning) :roll:
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