Are We Winning?

[Daryl]

Skirtmen - Lead The Way! OooohRAH!

To infinity and beyond!

[Happy-N-Skirts]

I wonder if some of the manufacturers such as Sport Kilt would mind telling customers how many people in each of our local areas are customers. It would be good to know.

[Sinned]

I suppose it depends upon what you mean by local area - is that by state or county within a state in the US or by county in the UK or other local area in other countries.

[DonP]

I have been away from this forum for a very long time. One of the reasons were that I see no progress for men wearing skirts, and one of the major problems to face, as I see it, is not the society per se, but is due to the fact that many men in skirts go far too far and far too fast. They want it all here and now, and (therefore, to my opinion) they get nothing.

If men in skirts shall ever be a reality, apart from members of this and other forums, skirt wearing men must become generally accepted, by other men, from where the potential must come, and by women, including their own wives or girlfriends. Men in general have no interest in appearing feminine, or they dare not. Women do not want a sissy, or they dare not tell their friends, family or colleagues, should they do so.
Whether the truth is the one or other alternative doesn’t matter. Men must be men, appear manly in the eyes of their surroundings. Manly means coming so close as possible to established “norms”, not their own beliefs.

I see no problems if a denim skirt simply replaces trousers or shorts, like Stu said it. I have been there myself. And I’m pretty convinced that most people could find it acceptable. But I do see a lot of troubles if the skirt is to be combined with high heels, pantyhose, coloured nails, long hair etc. A bandwagon effect is close to being non existing.

When women started wearing trousers, they never wanted to look or appear like men. They got their own trouser design, in different, thinner fabric and with the zipper at the side. It took years before their trousers would have a front zipper.
They continued wearing their own shoes etc. The only really visible difference was that they had replaced their skirt with a pair of slacks.

To men longing for more fellow skirters, my advice is less is more.
I’ll stick to my kilts, worn not as garb but in a casual way, with the kilt combined with only a few “highland” items. Another less is more solution, by the way.

Still the most logical approach. I support anyone's right to wear whatever they like. But if you want to see real progress, you need to appeal to a more conservative man who could possibly envision himself wearing a skirt.

[oldsalt1]

I have been away from this forum for a very long time. One of the reasons were that I see no progress for men wearing skirts, and one of the major problems to face, as I see it, is not the society per se, but is due to the fact that many men in skirts go far too far and far too fast. They want it all here and now, and (therefore, to my opinion) they get nothing.

If men in skirts shall ever be a reality, apart from members of this and other forums, skirt wearing men must become generally accepted, by other men, from where the potential must come, and by women, including their own wives or girlfriends. Men in general have no interest in appearing feminine, or they dare not. Women do not want a sissy, or they dare not tell their friends, family or colleagues, should they do so.
Whether the truth is the one or other alternative doesn’t matter. Men must be men, appear manly in the eyes of their surroundings. Manly means coming so close as possible to established “norms”, not their own beliefs.

I see no problems if a denim skirt simply replaces trousers or shorts, like Stu said it. I have been there myself. And I’m pretty convinced that most people could find it acceptable. But I do see a lot of troubles if the skirt is to be combined with high heels, pantyhose, coloured nails, long hair etc. A bandwagon effect is close to being non existing.

When women started wearing trousers, they never wanted to look or appear like men. They got their own trouser design, in different, thinner fabric and with the zipper at the side. It took years before their trousers would have a front zipper.
They continued wearing their own shoes etc. The only really visible difference was that they had replaced their skirt with a pair of slacks.

To men longing for more fellow skirters, my advice is less is more.
I’ll stick to my kilts, worn not as garb but in a casual way, with the kilt combined with only a few “highland” items. Another less is more solution, by the way.

Still the most logical approach. I support anyone's right to wear whatever they like. But if you want to see real progress, you need to appeal to a more conservative man who could possibly envision himself wearing a skirt.

So what you are saying is that we should only wear denim skirts because they can be mistaken for shorts or wear kilts and have everybody ask you what are you wearing under that Boy that is some progress

[DonP]

It depends what your goal is. If you want to be independent, wear whatever you want. If you want to increase the number of men in skirts, then you should dress to inspire acceptance

[oldsalt1]

It depends what your goal is. If you want to be independent, wear whatever you want. If you want to increase the number of men in skirts, then you should dress to inspire acceptance

Like I said acceptance of what in 10 years it will be ok to wear a denim skirt because it could look like you are actually wearing shorts

I agree that taking it to the extreme is not helpful . But if you have a chance to wear A skirt any place beside taking out the garbage and running to the gas station it should look right. and right sometimes means the proper shoes and other items to enhance the look . You know sought of like Highland Items whatever they are

[DonP]

I prefer to look like a man in a skirt and not like a man dressed as a woman. I'm sure that touches some nerves, but the discussion is about making progress and increasing numbers. I think we first need to get more men on board.

[hoborob]

Right you are OldSalt. Taking wearing to an extreme more often than not creates a backlash against everyone that wears a skirt, or at least the male wearers anyway. It will only be those that wear, present and act reasonably and normally that will ultimately create the environment for all of us to wear what we like.

Such is the case when it comes to crossdressers. Its not the folks that live and act normally and reasonably that cause the problems and create the idea that all crossdressers are gay. It's the Drag Queens and Flamers that have created and caused the problem that the rest of the community have to deal with. The same can happen to skirt wearers if the militant and in your face types become those that get and create the headlines.

The point here is that we must be normal and reasonable in order to get the whole of the communities we live in to let us live and wear what we want. When we act weird and strange and try to push the issue, that's when the backlash starts. It may not appear that headway is being made but just live and let live and the reasonable ones out there will follow soon enough. Most folks are afraid that when they break the societal norms they will be shunned, by showing that reasonable people just live that barrier can be broken down.

[oldsalt1]

I prefer to look like a man in a skirt and not like a man dressed as a woman. I'm sure that touches some nerves, but the discussion is about making progress and increasing numbers. I think we first need to get more men on board.

The post is Are We winning. The Question is your way working. I know I didn't put on a skirt because I saw a man wearing one.

[Grok]

. Most folks are afraid that when they break the societal norms they will be shunned, by showing that reasonable people just live that barrier can be broken down.

This requires careful thought-how to reassure people. Because we are proposing radical change.

[Daryl]

I prefer to look like a man in a skirt and not like a man dressed as a woman. I'm sure that touches some nerves, but the discussion is about making progress and increasing numbers. I think we first need to get more men on board.

Reflexes not nerves in my case. I look at what was aesthetically normal and acceptable for men in the distant past and realise that what we "look like" is almost entirely conditioning, not nature. Every time I think I've found a nearly essential element of manly aesthetics, I am proven wrong by history. So now I see the "manly look" as oppressive, something I am forced to do, and my reflex is to reject that loudly on philosophical grounds.

On the other hand, I am also a product of conditioning, and I have gotten used to manliness and it feels quite comfortable and natural. So, except for some relatively minor excursions I don't "cross" the line very much. My mirror usually tells me the truth, judging from how I am received by others in various kinds of attire. The truth, I think, is that a skirt is such a big emblem that you can make it as manly as you want, even go way over the top manning it up, and it is still crossing the line. And that line, in most people's minds, and both before and after the successes of the LGBT movement, is that a man is somehow expressing a desire to be, or be like, a woman, and not a man. (Have you ever seen Glen or Glenda?) In fact, any assertion of manliness above just remaining a man, could be seen as denial of the fact that you really just want to be a woman; a kind of compensation hoping to get a pass from others. (This wouldn't apply in art and propaganda, which should push the imagination of the viewer, but it would apply in real life.) With that "explanation" in mind some people may become even more sympathetic to the trans movement and less sympathetic to the men's garment choice movement. "Poor man wants to be a woman but is forced to deny it by an intolerant society."

Complicating this is that skirts kind of grease the chute into stereotypically feminine mannerisms and aesthetic choices. I never even knew I could sit with my knees together before, and it was difficult if I tried to force it, so I never did. With a skirt I eased into it unconsciously and incrementally, and now I sit that way regularly after over 60 years of not doing so. I'm also enjoying coordination and colour a hell of a lot more.

So, I think from a strategic point of view, for what is essentially a liberation movement, your last assertion is entirely correct. I am conscious of that in both my own designs and my own comportment. Neither is oppressive to me in any but the philosophical sense, so I don't indulge my philosophical outrage. In fact, staying somewhat inside the "man box" actually makes things easier. Design and construction is simpler and so is simply getting around and out in the world.

[Caultron]

I'll admit that when I get dressed and loom at myself in a mirror, I often ask the question, "Would a woman dressed this way look attractive?"

But perhaps this is the result of having no generally-accepted, male, skirted fashion role models to compare against. Or because all the fashion role models for the type of clothes I like happen to be women.

Or maybe if I like the way women look in a certain type of outfit, why shouldn't I look good in that type of outfit myself? (A degree of social rebelliousness being allowed)

But I have no desire to go whole hog with the wigs and the makeup and the breast forms so I can masquerade as a woman.

[crfriend]

I'll admit that when I get dressed and loom at myself in a mirror, I often ask the question, "Would a woman dressed this way look attractive?"

I would posit that such a question should not be asked because it's skewed from the get-go. It's not whether a woman would look good, it's whether you look good. Asking the former question leads into the world of cross-dressing rather into the world of clothing ourselves -- as guys -- in ways that flatter us.

But perhaps this is the result of having no generally-accepted, male, skirted fashion role models to compare against. Or because all the fashion role models for the type of clothes I like happen to be women.

This could be the case, but one should resist the idea. Something is going to look dramatically different on the average guy than it will on a female model.

Now, that tends to make the idea even more scary than it needs to be, but that's because since there are no "role models" we're cutting new ground here.

Given the above, and the fact that any time we usually see a skirt it's on, or being modelled by, a woman we experience a bit of confusion. In my case, I can usually take a look at the garment in question and figure out (1) whether it might look good on me and (2) if so, what changes would be required to make it really work on me.

I prefer to look like a man in a skirt and not like a man dressed as a woman.

The prevailing wisdom is that, "If I wanted to dress like a woman I'd wear skinny jeans or leggings." So as long as things aren't taken to an extreme (e.g. wigs, other false body-parts, and the associated affectations) then if a particular rig works on a particular individual then it shouldn't be a problem. Perhaps the key here is being recognisably male.

[Caultron]

,,,Given the above, and the fact that any time we usually see a skirt it's on, or being modelled by, a woman we experience a bit of confusion. In my case, I can usually take a look at the garment in question and figure out (1) whether it might look good on me and (2) if so, what changes would be required to make it really work on me...

That's it.